Talk:Case of the Trotskyist Anti-Soviet Military Organization

Old talk

• Detailed, documented article, in Russian. Mikkalai 06:37, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  • Link dead. Mikkalai 03:04, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Discrepancy within Dates

• There seems to be quite a discrepancy in the information: the verdict was announced at 23:35 on July 11, 1937, and the convicted were ordered to be executed immediately. Therefore there have been discrepancies in various sources as to the exact date of death of Tukhachevsky and others: June 11 vs. June 12. Note that June and July are one month separate. Exactly in which month did they get that conviction. Darkhooda 22:23, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing this. June. Mikkalai 03:04, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

• It might be worthwhile to better explain Yakov Garmanik's role in this incident. He was called upon to be part of the court to judge the accused, but insisted upon Tukhachevsky's innocence and then committed suicide when it became evident that he, too, would be arrested for what he had said. It was only after all this that he was added to the list of military conspirators. (The Great Terror, p.200-201) Silence

A small discrepancy in the names, and a query

Kashirin's name (3rd paragraph) in Russian is given in the order last name/given name/patronymic, unlike its English transliteration and unlike the other Russian names in this article, which are given in the same order as in the English: given name (or its initial)/patronymic (or its initial)/last name. I think we should make it conform to the rest, and especially to its English transliteration.

The Russian name of the military-judicial "Special Session" would translate as "Special XXX Session" (where XXX is an adjective that I don't know how to translate, unfortunately). But no doubt someone else can fill in the missing word so that we can render the term in English as precisely as it is given in the Russian.

 - Cy

I personally think the language in the final section of this article is a tad...enflamed...for an encyclopedia.

primakov

primakov with 4 rombs primakov biographies

shmidt d

http://militera.lib.ru/research/mezhiritsky/01.html

Civil War

I have a real problem with this article. There has never been any proof that the officer were in league with the Nazis - although there had been contacts between the Soviets and the Weimar Republic's Reichswehr, looking at co-operation in reasearch in areas like tanks. The other thing is that Stalin's role in the Civil War put him up against Tuchachevsky several times - including the disaster at the Battle of Warsaw, which Stalin screwed up. Darkmind1970 08:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

There's an intriguing paragraph that I think needs to be developed further:

At first it was thought 25-50% of Red Army officers were purged, it is now known to be 3.7-7.7%. Previously, the size of the Red Army officer corps was underestimated and it was overlooked that most of those purged were merely expelled from the Party. 30% of officers purged 1937-9 were allowed back.

We have just seen the list of high-level purges -- all but two of the field marshals, all but one of the admirals, and so on. This fact is probably what is most familiar to those in the English-speaking world. That is, the general belief could be stated something like "Stalin executed almost all his top leaders, leaving the Red Army without an experienced general staff when invasion came, and allowing Hitler to be more successful in Operation Barbarossa than he might have been if the Red Army had had more experienced top leaders."

Now we see that more recent research has found that the percent of officers actually purged was something closer to 5% than 25-50%. And we see that many of these men were allowed to resign to spare their lives, and were able to join the Army again later on.

So, were any of the field marshals, admirals, generals, and so on allowed back? Who were they replaced with?

Roches (talk) 09:24, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

References

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contradiction with purges

"At the end, three of five Soviet Marshals, 90% of all Red Army generals, 80% of Red Army colonels and 30,000 officers of lesser rank had been purged. Virtually all were executed.[6][clarification needed]

At first, it was thought 25-50% of Red Army officers were purged, but it is now known to be 3.7-7.7%. Previously, the size of the Red Army officer corps was underestimated, and it was overlooked that most of those purged were merely expelled from the Party. 30% of officers purged 1937-9 were allowed back."

this seems pretty contradictory, but I'm not well versed enough to make a correction — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:7402:7701:39D7:596C:6656:E838 (talk) 15:21, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Primakov vm.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Evidence, arrest and secret trial

The section Evidence, arrest and secret trial could use better sources, more up to date evidence and a shift away from memoirs and less postulation about intentions. Usually there is direct archival evidence of Stalin signing the warrant for high ranking people's deaths, use that instead of Barmine. I noticed that "Afraid of the consequences of trying popular generals and war heroes in a public forum" may be a distortion, I'd have to investigate the source further but the usual official line from the state on the prosecution of well regarded members was for their trials to remain in camera on foreign policy concerns. This is the at least the official reason stated in soviet press why the Latvian Consul was never pursued after the Kirov assassination. Padlocks (talk) 23:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Pawns

A few confusing aspects:

If they are "secret trials" why does Stalin need a public justification for proceeding? That should only matter if it's public and he needs to appear justified in what he is doing.

Whether the information originated in the USSR I'm not sure that Germany simply repeating the intelligence they received makes them "unwitting pawns of Stalin". Was it against German interests that Stalin should ruthlessly eliminate a large part of his military? Seems to be that it's more of a case of mutual convenience, and in the end Stalin was hurting himself more than the Germans. Like if the Germans had found out that the Intel was false, would they realistically say "ah hah, so he just wants a justification for purging his officers, let's foil his plot and refuse to disseminate the intel, preventing him from executing and imprisoning thousands of his own experienced officers"? Why would they want to do that? Just in case the new ones turn out to be better and the fear and paranoia actually improves the performance of the Soviet Army? Stalin gave them an opportunity and they took advantage of it. At worst they actually believed the intel that there were significant numbers of Soviet officers opposed to Stalin. Which would make it kind of weird that they would decide that the best thing to do was to expose those officers and get them all purged from their positions. Unless they judged that the disruption that would create more than justified the sacrifice, which seems likely. Because again, they aren't going to see this as harmful to their own interests, especially since they know they are about to invade while Stalin still thinks he has time to gather forces. Stalin played himself more than the Germans. Idumea47b (talk) 13:00, 30 December 2024 (UTC)